Moulding the next generation

     Bridging & Commercial [Andreea Dulgheru] - Issue Jul/Aug 2024

As with any other career, one thing is key to success in specialist finance: learning the ropes from the best in the business. Mentorship has a great power to develop talent and support staff within companies and consequently in our market.

However, just like specialist finance, mentorship is not a one-size-fits-all approach for both mentor and mentee. Individuals learn, address workplace issues, impart knowledge and set examples in different ways.

As the industry becomes more and more focused on education and raising standards, we wanted to shine a spotlight on some of the industry's biggest role models and learn their approach to mentorship, and see their success stories through the eyes of some mentees with first-hand experience.

Starting off the series is none other than industry stalwart Danny Waters, CEO at Enra Specialist Finance, who is joined by two of his most successful mentees, West One's Head of Bridging Tom Cantor and Head of Development Finance Guy Murray. The three share their experiences of the mentor-mentee relationship, the ups and downs and what this dynamic has taught them both professionally and personally.

Andreaa Dulgheru: Danny, you started your career in the finance industry at 17, so I'm assuming you've had quite a few mentors over the years. How hard was it to learn the ropes and get to where you are today?

Danny Waters: It was very hard because I came in with very little knowledge about the industry, and I was as green as grass. I was really lucky that the first person who employed me was a brilliant business leader. Since it was a very small company, I got to spend a lot of time communicating directly with him and learning the ropes in close proximity. I was very young when I came into the industry, whereas Tom and Guy were older than me when they started working, and both had a much better context of the industry. I just simply fell into it when decided I needed a job; that one I took was reasonably close to my house, and it just happened to be in the mortgage industry.  

From then and onwards, after learning about the industry for a short period of time, I realised there was something quite fascinating about it, and I started enjoying being a dealmaker and the other progressions that happened within my career. I've been in the industry for 23 years now, and I still don't know it all by any means; I'm constantly learning new things about people, or new products and markets that our firm is exploring, and that's the great part of the job.

Being able to evolve and make the transaction between various products with different people keeps this job really interesting for me. 

Andreaa Dulgheru: Out of all the mentors you've had throughout your career, does anybody stand out in particular?

Danny Waters: There are a couple of people, actually, within two distinct periods. The first mentor would be a gentleman called Paul Rose, who was a founding director of Enterprise Finance - the brokerage business we consolidated with Vantage to create Aria Finance. 

He was a brilliant, shrewd individual who was really focused on managing a cost base - a skill I learned from him that is still with me today. He was always focused on the details, which I think is really important. I met my next mentor around 2013 - so about a decade into my career - which was when the business was transitioning and starting to grow exponentially. We had a gentleman called David Campbell join the business' board - he was a former investment banker turned entrepreneur and led an MBO private equity back then for Bridgepoint. What he taught me was to always think big. 

Looking back, there's actually a bit of a contrast between what I learned from each of them: one mentor told me to sweat the small stuff, focus on the details and make sure that every pound in a prisoner, while the other told me to never limit my ambition, think big and focus on maximising big opportunities. The other thing David taught me was how to communicate within the institutional investment world.

In our business - and in any business in the mortgage lending space - being able to raise capital is vital, so being excellent in a capital-raising environment is really important, and David taught me the skills to be able to do that confidently and competently. Paul, unfortunately, passed away quite early on in my career, but I'm still very close friends with David.

It's nice to be able to rely on him, and I know that if I'm ever going through anything that's particularly challenging, I can speak to him and use him as a sounding board in an environment which is safe for me. 

Tom Cantor: Your career has been and is amazing from where you started and where you got to. I'm guessing it wasn't always up - there must have been down as well. How did you deal with and overcome these? What I find tough, sometimes, is when things don't go to plan, and you can't predict certain things that happen.

Danny Waters: There are a couple of obvious things that stand out to me, real low moments in my career. The first was the global financial crisis; living through that era, when liquidity just disappeared from the entire financial markets, was super challenging, and there was nothing that one individual could do, no matter who you were, to try to solve that problem. 

All you could do was just the best within your control and stay in the game - that was a big part of it. It was really important just to make sure that you kept your presence in the market so that when green shoots would appear - and they did - you would have a first-mover advantage. The other moment that I can think of is when we had signed a deal to sell a significant stake to a business in 2016, which was for a lot of money. The deal was signed, subject to one thing, which was called a material adverse change clause, and that clause was in relation to the UK remaining in the EU.

At the time, I thought there was a 10-1 shot that there would be a vote for remain within the EU and that we wouldn't leave, so I was quite confident that that deal was going to take place. I remember staying up the entire night, watching all of the votes come in, and we obviously left the EU - so that deal, which was worth hundreds of millions of pounds, fell away.

I had not slept in 24 hours, and saw my net worth decimated in a moment that was completely outside my control. I remember I had to go into the office - because there were 150 staff at the time and 15 other people in the management team who owned equity stakes who were in the same shoes as I was - and galvanise the troops because were all on the floor. The city of London was like a ghost town. But you know what? We used adversity as an opportunity. Everyone thought that the market would become dislocated, and it did for a very short period of time, but then we continued to trade well, the deal got resurrected four or five months later and everything was fine. It's a long-winded way to answer the question, but having lots of endurance and resilience is key.

Andreaa Dulgheru: At what point would you say you transitioned from being a mentee to mentor?

Danny Waters: I believe you can be both at the same time; they're not mutually exclusive. Just because I'm looking for people for guidance and support doesn't mean that I'm prohibited from doing that for people within our executive team. You can definitely be both. The challenge is, that as you become more elevated in your career, there are probably fewer people that you can really lean on to be a mentor. 

But at the same time, my job is to pass my knowledge to both these guys [Guy and Tom], and many more people within our firm. And the important thing, as a mentor, is to be yourself. You have to be authentic.

Guy Murray: I have a question, actually. I can imagine being CEO can sometimes be quite isolating. Who do you look towards for guidance these days?

Danny Waters: I still touch base with David. It's not guidance that I need so much any more, because I've done it for a long time. It's usually venting, like you're in therapy. Sometimes you just need to share your problems. My wife Lucy [Waters, managing director at Aria Finance] is the obvious go-to person for me - her being in the industry is helpful because she knows most of the characters involved, and she knows me and my personality intimately, so she can often guide me. And then I have a few friends, usually ex-colleagues, who have a high-level understanding of the market.

People sometimes see me as a walk-on-water CEO who doesn't have issues; that's nonsense. I've probably got more issues than most people because I'm running a big business, so I need to vent sometimes. That's not to rule out that in the future, I won't have a mentor though. These things don't tend to be prescribed but rather happen by chance. I'm always open to learning snippets from everyone, and I find that the best pieces of information that I get are no longer from one person - they're from a pool of people.

Andreaa Dulgheru: Tom and Guy, how do you feel about the opportunity to have been and still be mentored by Danny, and what was the biggest lesson you learned from him so far?

Tom Cantor: One of the main benefits of being mentored by Danny is just the direct contact you have with him on a daily basis. I started my career in finance as a part of a graduate scheme at a bank, and we had mentors and people who we could talk to, but none of them were business leaders - they were all teaching us just theoretical things. With Danny, he's been in our shoes and done all the jobs, so he knows all the tips and tricks and has all this experience of working in every area of the business. 

The opportunity to learn from somebody who's been through everything is invaluable not just when you're starting out, but at any stage in your career, because he's got the benefit of real-world experience and examples. If we ever come across a scenario that we haven't seen before - which we do on a daily basis - having the opportunity to call him or walk into his office to run ideas or opportunities or get examples from him that are relevant to the situation is priceless.

Guy Murray: Yes, I feel the same. Looking back to when I joined the business nine years ago when it was a bit smaller, it was probably easier to have access to a mentor like Danny. Being able to work with someone who has done it himself, especially at a young age, is quite inspiring, and having access to this knowledge early on is really beneficial.

Danny Waters: From a mentoring perspective, it's important to point out that we didn't specifically recruit these two individuals to be business leaders and to be mentored by me - they've earned that right. They stood out from the hundreds of other employees within the business, and really distinguished themselves, showing that they have the ambition, courage, talent and intellect to be able to do an important job for our business. 

The other interesting thing is the fact that they're both quite young, relative to the positions they hold within our organisation. They probably manage over £1bn of funds between them, so that's a big job, but we trust them because we've seen them develop within our own industry - they've learnt the technical ability needed for these jobs and the management style, culture and DNA of our organisation. I find it much easier to allow these kinds of people to take over the big jobs in our organisation, as we grow and scale the company.

Andreaa Dulgheru: Would you say that part of your management style and the secret to being a good mentor is giving them the freedom to take charge and implement their vision, while also not being afraid to fail?

Danny Waters: Yes. It's a balance - you can't just give them the keys and say "Get on with it" because there's too much at risk. But you do have to, as a mentor, sometimes bite your tongue and allow them to take a course of action that you might not necessarily have taken. Occasionally, you might be surprised and it might end up with a better outcome than you were expecting while, other times, they can take a hit - but they need to learn for themselves.

Just being told what will happen isn't the same as actually seeing it play through, and then having to deal with the consequences of your actions yourself. And seeing them perform really well and succeed in something that my surprise you is a real buzz.

Andreaa Dulgheru: Tom, Guy, now that you are mentors yourself, you must feel the same satisfaction to see your team members succeed as well.

Guy Murray: Yes, definitely. Also, part of why we've been very successful is the fact that Danny wants our business to be the best and a leader in the space - he delivers this message of excellence to us, and we have to keep that momentum and deliver it down through the management chain. That said, everyone's got different management styles so, while we may want to replicate what Danny does, sometimes it's a bit unnatural to do the same thing. It's all about learning what to do and how to do it, but in your own style; you have to stay authentic to who you are and how you operate.

Danny Waters: I agree. To have 15 people exactly like me running around the organisation would be a disaster. [laughs]

Andreaa Dulgheru: Is there a particular key lesson that your mentor has told you, that has really stuck with you, and shaped up your career?

Tom Cantor: Oh, for sure. I came into the business not knowing very much about the specialist finance industry, and I remember Danny telling me to always live on the side of paranoia. At the time, I was probably a bit naive and too gullible bit, as you get through this job and you understand the complexities of the industry and the agenda that sometimes people have - especially when they're trying to borrow large sums of money - living on that side of paranoia is actually a healthy state of mind because you keep yourself aware of what's going on.

Guy Murray: For me, there are a lot of things stuck with me. One would be to work as hard as you can stand out, and make sure you put in 110% effort into everything you do. It's also about having principles that you stick to, especially in lending - you've got to be quite principled about how you make decisions, and be consistent over time. 

On top of that, it's important to always look forward and drive everyone forward, because we don't want to sit still. It's always about looking ahead and figuring out how we get better every day.

Andreaa Dulgheru: Danny, are these pieces of advice that you got from your mentors and passed them down to Tom and Guy, or things you've learned yourself as your career evolved?

Danny Waters: They're mainly based on my experience. The thing that I try to reinforce to the team is they should never lose any money. Also, paranoia is healthy - you don't knocked down by the bus that you see coming. These are the kind of things that you'll hear me say to the team regularly. The biggest takeaway I got from my mentors, which I pass down to my mentees, is to think big. Whatever you think is the most that you can achieve, there's probably more that you can squeeze out of the lemon, so don't put limits on your aspirations and ambitions.

Andreaa Dulgheru: Guy, going back to something you said earlier - now that you and Tom are in a position where you mentor people yourselves, do you sometimes find yourself comparing your management style to Danny's?

Guy Murray: Yes, he's been successful, so you want to make comparisons, which I think is important because you want to show consistency from the top down, especially thought management and how we deal with things. But, at the same time, as I said earlier, you've got to be authentic. You have to take the bits that you think you need to improve and learn from and implement them in your own way. If you're not authentic, people won't follow you.

Tom Cantor: It's key to know the situation you're in, and what style is most appropriate for that situation. If you know what result you want to get out of that situation, you then have to think about the journey of getting from A to B, and what's the most appropriate way of doing that.

Sometimes, it'll be closer to what Danny would do, rather than how I would handle it whereas, at other times, it'll be different. It depends on the situation but also on who you're talking to, as different people react to different things.

Danny Waters: That is a very valid point. We're all working with slightly different generations here. I'm dealing with people who are older than me, so that's one method of communication and style, whereas you guys are dealing with people who are sometimes younger than you so they respond to different techniques. As a mentor, you've got to be able to bridge that age difference to be able get the best out of people.  

Andreaa Dulgheru: What would you say being a mentor has taught you about yourself, and how do you feel about the responsibility of shaping other people who are new to the industry?

Danny Waters: One of the things that I enjoy most is seeing young people in our organisation succeed. Giving them the opportunity, the tools and the platform to really achieve great things is wholly rewarding for me. As a mentor, I love empowering people to go on and take things to a new level. I'm not the ceiling here - I want these guys to be better than I was in the near future.

Tom Cantor: I think, for me, being a mentor has taught me to be confident in my ability to teach others. You get lost day to day, and you don't realise how much you know until you've got to try and explain something to someone. It's allowed me to realise that there are people that do value and want to learn from my own experiences and situations that I've been in before. I am aware that I've learned a lot in the five and a half years I've been there, and I can use that to help people overcome challenges they've not faced before.

Guy Murray: I feel the same way as Tom. Also, being a mentor made me realise the importance of building a work culture and getting good people who fit within that culture. Also, it's taught me the importance of impacting our knowledge and experience to the next generation of people. You always want to have the next generation ready to take over when you're not there - if you are building a business that is solely reliant on yourself, then you're actually not doing a very good job at it. It's all about the next wave, and I always think about that as a mentor.

Danny Waters: As a business, we've got a huge responsibility and we take that role [as educators] seriously. We get the best talent in the industry and train them, which is arguably much harder and takes longer than hiring somebody who already has that expertise. But by doing this, you get in return loyalty, retention and the cultural alignment that you get from training people. This is something that you have to take seriously.

Andreaa Dulgheru: What would you say is the toughest part of being a mentor?

Danny Waters: The toughest part is the responsibility that you've got people who look up to you, and who you need to make sure that you're a positive impact on their life and their career. Also, it's the time commitment that it takes to be a good mentor. Mentoring somebody doesn't happen overnight, so carving out that time to really give people the inner circle is important. 

Tom Cantor: For me, the challenging part is, when you're not feeling 100% or you're stressed, not letting that get in the way of the job and mentoring responsibility that you have to the rest of the team. As Danny said, you've got to have a positive mindset and be approachable and solution-focused with people because, ultimately, they look to you for guidance and help. However, it's not always easy because you're not in that positive, happy mindset each and every day, and that can be quite tough.

Guy Murray: I'd say this is a challenge in terms of making sure you spend enough time with everyone. Also, adapting the way you deal with and teach people. You've got to understand what drives them and what may turn them away.

Andreaa Dulgheru: Danny, what one piece of advice would you give to other mentors and mentees in the industry?

Danny Waters: For mentors, we've covered a lot of it, but the most important thing is to back winners. There's no point investing lots of your time and energy into people - when you're at my level, I'm talking about - unless they really want to grow and develop. These two are very ambitious people. They wanted to come in and run a division or a business within our group and, one day, they might want to run their own firm. For me to carve out my time, as I was talking about, the mentee needs to be ambitious because if they don't want it, I can't want it for them. Making sure that everybody's objectives are aligned is super important.

Andreaa Dulgheru: Finally, Tom and Guy, what advice would you give other mentees?

Tom Cantor: Be open to feedback. Not everyone takes criticism very well, but an important part to be able to grow is recognising when you've made a mistake and allowing someone to give you that feedback and taking it in a constructive rather than a destructive way. Of course, part of that is how it's delivered, but the other part is recognising that whoever is giving you that constructive criticism probably has your best interest at heart and wants you to succeed. That is not easy to accept in the heat of the moment though.

Guy Murray: For me, I'd advise mentees to try to set themselves apart from everyone else - this way, you will get more time from your superiors, and you'll rise above. It's important to work harder than everyone else around you and put yourself in uncomfortable situations. If you're bright and ambitious enough, you will do well.

Tom Cantor: It's also essential to take the initiative, as well. Don't just sit back and wait for people to give things to you, because that's not the way life works. You've got to go out and show you want it and have some initiative - only then your mentor or people in higher positions will start to be a bit more receptive to helping you.

Danny Waters: I have a final piece of advice for mentees, and that is to have patience. One of the things that I've seen over the years is that people expect to have a meteoric rise quickly. Part of this journey is trusting those who are giving you the opportunity, and believing them when they say you're not quite ready yet, or that you're on the right path but you need to keep doing this for a bit longer. I've seen so many people make bad decisions, where they've pivoted out of roles because they didn't think progression was coming quickly enough, and they've regretted it. So be patient, do all the things Tom and Guy mentioned and good things will happen.